Julian Wu (John Locke)
I believe liberty, equality, and fraternity is the most important in society. Everyone is born with natural rights. These rights should never be taken away. Liberty is one of those rights, and that is one of the most important rights anyone can have. Although order, security, and efficiency is also important to a society, liberty and equality comes first. Everyone must live like "brothers," because we as brothers all have the same natural rights. Order keeps everyone in place, but what can keep people from revolting when they do not have the right to life? Does that mean they can just be killed randomly? Security is the same reason. It does not matter how much security is available, because people need their natural rights. Security is used to restrain people from certain places, but isn't that just the right to property? Order, security, and efficiency is all used by to government to restrain its people. However, these people have the ability to overthrow the government if they so choose. Then why would order, security, and efficiency be more important than natural rights, liberty, equality, and fraternity? Liberty, equality, and fraternity are the ideas that keep peace. It does not matter how much order, security, and efficiency someone may have, because there will always be someone else there to challenge, protest, and rebel against them.
Hobbes (Michael Kowalski)
ReplyDeleteLocke, my old "friend", you fail to see the contradiction in your words. How can the right to life be protected when there is no security. The answer is quite elementary. Simply, you can't. One can not assure the people something when he does not have it to give it away. Or better yet when that same someone has been killed since the security, which is essential to the function and workings of society, is non-existent. I thank you for the worthy attempt but it is quite clear that you must rethink your opinion. There is still time to repent and come to reason.
Locke (Julian Wu)
DeleteLet me clarify, my old friend. This argument is talking about which is more important in society: Liberty, equality, and fraternity or order, security, and efficiency. You state that the right to life cannot be protected when there is no security. That is true. However, this argument is about which is more important, which is clearly liberty, since security and order are only the tools used to achieve liberty. Thank you for your argument, but unfortunately, your mind seems to have strayed a little. Lastly, please note that my opinion is quite clear. You must rethink yours, my old friend.
Thomas Hobbes: Old friend, you make a strong argument, yet you are missing some key points. While I agree with you in that, order and security are key ingredients to liberty, you must remember that without them liberty can not be guaranteed. Without liberty, equality, and fraternity, a country can still be successful, and I would go so far as to say it could even be prosperous.
DeleteA fair attempt, but u made as much progress as the French Revolution. And I reply to it by posing a question to you, what is more important when dying of thirst in the desert? The container you are using, or the life giving water inside? This question is the same way as the metaphor previously made, being that security is more valued than liberty because freedoms don't mean much when you have no way to exercise them (especially if you are dead). Strong attempt but easily refuted, I bid you luck on you next attempt in taking down the truth in the world.
DeleteI thank you for making this metaphor! The water is much more important the container, just like how liberty and equality is much more important than order and security! The container is just like order and security, holding and containing the precious liberty inside, that is much more important.
Delete(Locke)
DeleteHello Hobbes again, I am sure I covered all my key points pretty well. Liberty and equality is what we are striving for, so it is much more important than the stepping stones in which we may or may not use to get there, which is order and security. Let me put it this way, order and security cannot make a country prosperous. They are only tools! Two bricks cannot make a house! Two rocks cannot make a mountain! Lastly, and my all time favorite, order and security cannot make a successful country. Good night, old friend. I will revisit you when you wish to continue arguing.
Hobbes
DeleteI can see you simplistic and ideological mind has failed to grasp the pertinence of the metaphor, therefore I am forced to use a more elemtary one. For the sake of the metaphor, a man dies. However the day prior he purchased a lottery ticket. This very ticket just so happened to be pulled just moments prior to his demise. He may take pleasure in the fact of his victory (but more likely he is to be concerned for his saftey), but this vicory is meaningless as he can make no use of it and nor can his family or anyone else (being that they will redraw another number). If the man had a say I am sure he would trade his wealth for his life and to be SAFE. The liberty means nothing if there is no security and people are likely to give up privlages and other things for their saftey and security. If this point has not been brought down to a low enough level of intelligence for thou to comprehend, I am afraid that I will not be able to think so small and you must inquire the other great minds amongst us to get a straight answer. It is quite simple Mr. Locke, I thought you more capable than this.
Let us be very honest Mr. Locke, you fail to see that without Order and without an Efficient government nothing will ever change. The people will continue and continue to complain because there will always be something that they find isn't equal. History repeats itself and you have seen over the last couple of decades that the people of France will always complain to their government about the unjust ways that society is being ran!
ReplyDeleteWoman (Ryan Teng)
ReplyDeleteYes I believe your words to be true, however this "liberty" that people are fighting for has caused nothing but pain and grief for the general population of France. Perhaps fighting for these natural rights is something that is proper and for the best of humanity, but it just isn't worth living another day in fear for something that might not even solve all our problems. We didn't even start fighting for these "Natural Rights," What we wanted was food, not liberty, not equality, and certainly not fraternity. Perhaps you are correct in saying that people will revolt if these rights are not given to them, however people will fight nonetheless. Am I not correct in saying so?
This revolution for your "Natural Rights" has not accomplished anything but the slaughter of many. including my friends, my family, and my faith in humanity. I would much rather have that faith restored than to face another day sitting under the shadow of the Guillotine
A Jacobin (Zack Johnson)
ReplyDeleteWoman, you are blinded by the short term. Order, security, and efficiency throw up a clever ruse that depicts the safety that traumatized revolutionary victims yearn for. You have been molded into such a victim. But what happens when holes are poked in this ruse? What happens when fallacies begin to peer out, eager to enter the world outside? Suddenly, your orderly, secure, and efficient society vanishes. Suddenly, the population notices the injustices being done around them. Anger WILL build and will eventually burst open in a rage that makes the Revolution look like a skirmish. You say that we accomplished nothing in this Revolution? False. We showed the world, we showed those in power that if they steal our freedom from us we are willing to fight for what what we believe in. And we believe in freedom. Thus, the only way to ensure a fully functioning, prosperous, society in the long term is to award liberty, freedom, and fraternity to all at the onset. No ruses, no taking advantage of traumatized victims yearning for false peace. Just an effective, supported government.
Locke (Julian Wu)
DeleteMr. Jacobin, I would like to personally give you the biggest congratulations and reward for knowing what is right.\! These old Hobbes don't know what they are talking about! Fight on with strength and perseverance, and liberty shall be obtained!
Napoleon (Yash Gokhale)
ReplyDeleteWell spoken Mr. Locke. Liberty, equality and fraternity are the best ideas for the French people. As you said Liberty, equality and fraternity are ideas that keep peace, like a soothing massage they calm the people. However when the government tries to bear down on the people to create order, security and efficiency chaos is created for the people feel constricted. By soothing the people liberty, equality and fraternity will eventually lead to order, security and efficiency and create a stable society.
Hello Mr. Bonaparte. I am glad you agree with me. Fight for equality and every society will become a better place!
Delete-Locke